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What looks like a peripheral issue to you is somebody else's central goal. And vice versa.

There is a niche market for hand-knit sweaters, and they do have some fervent followers, but most of us prefer the price and convenience of machine-made fabrics. Just like most of us do not write assembly by hand any more, most of the time.

Humans will hallucinate misinformation and state it with confidence. They stochastically parrot their training data without any real understanding. Cool trick, but no true reasoning is happening.

We used to call this the game of telephone. The shameful part comes from three posibilities:

1. A head of a frontier AI lab has no idea what happened in that incident and did not read the multiple papers that came out of it.

2. A head of a frontier AI lab did read the papers and was informed but still walked away with this understanding.

3. Andrew Yang made this whole thing up.


> Most say who say animals can't grieve are in the same boat with those who used to say human babies don't feel pain.

My dad was an anesthesiologist, and what he told me is rather different from that meme. The reason was that the safe dosing range for babies was unknown, and giving the wrong dose can lead to death or worse. The argument wasn't that babies couldn't feel pain, but that babies would not have lasting memories of it happening, and that it was less risky that overdosing them.


You know, if there was a hypnotic drug such that I could be sure I'd remember nothing (and many, many similar caveats), I'd volunteer to be caused all kinds of pain, because I don't see why I should care. The only moral angle I can see is the question of who would want it and why. Research maybe? In of itself, it doesn't seem bad.

You’re showing a lack of empathy for the instance of yourself that is experiencing all that pain. Simply forgetting it doesn’t make it right to not have empathy for the version of yourself that went through all the pain and suffering.

Yes, I am! Why isn't that fine? Not "right", you say.

Bear in mind that the "version of me" is me, and cognitively is in agreement that this is fine. Instinctively I would very much not think it was fine while undergoing the pain, but I'd also think I was wrong about that at the same time. I don't suppose I'd be all stoic about it like Giles Corey*, but it's the cognitive side of me that has the valid opinion and eventually the executive function.

*Squashed to death in Salem, 1692


I guess this might be a matter of subjective disagreement, but I'm personally opposed to all forms of consensual human suffering and death. I'd be fine with wrestling being banned, a law mandating contact sports amend rules to become non-contact, ban MAID (voluntary/consensual human euthanasia), ban anything that involves violence or harm done to any human being, including consenting adults consenting to violent acts performed on them. But that's just my opinion, and others are free to disagree with me on that. Although I will add that if I had legislative power I would not have an issue enacting such bans into law, even if people may say it taking away "rights"; to which I'd respond that certain rights like free speech are essential to a functioning free society, but certain other rights have no moral basis for being a right. The U.S. Congress (and various U.S. states) over the years progressively banned dueling. And notably, dueling was a consensual activity between two consenting adults, one that sadly took the life of Alexander Hamilton, amongst many others.

>(and many, many similar caveats)

Yea, this is where the argument has the biggest problems. If your heart explodes or you tear vessels in your eyeballs, or you have long term stress related tissue damage the fact you don't remember at all doesn't matter much.

The problem with memory is it exists in a lot of different places. Screw around too much and you can mess up organs or even your gene expressions. Nothing to do with your brain at all.


I used to suffer from night terrors until well into my teenage years. It made me think, I would never know how much I was supposedly suffering in the moment. But what does it matter, if I can't remember it?

Scary stuff.


Isn't that the same as submitting your clone to fear and torment because you will not have a lasting memory of surviving all that?

What's the practical difference other than timelike distance between you rather than spacelike distance?


There's a great free Yale lecture series called Death that goes into this.

https://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/phil-176/lecture-12

Version 1: A mad scientist swaps your mind with another person's (Linda's), then asks which resulting body he should torture. Intuition says spare the one with your personality, so personality looks like the key to identity.

Version 2: He's going to torture you, but first gives you amnesia, then makes you believe you're Linda, then gives Linda your memories. Intuition says don't torture your body, so the body looks like the key.


Premised on being utterly selfish and not caring about Linda.

Leaving that aside, is this really a great and clever question? In version 2, your minds are swapped, so it's the same question. The difference is that you have been "driven crazy" and "deluded", but in what sense? If the objective is to avoid yourself being tortured, it's unclear which one is yourself, simply because the question relies on the unclear fictional process of "making you believe you're the other person", and the question itself implies you shouldn't trust that process.

It could be made shorter: "A mad scientist comes along and does something mysterious, so that you might not be yourself any more! So, are you? Ah, you don't know! Gotcha!"

The original is in Problems of the Self, 1973. (Or it's an essay titled The Self and The Future.) I've got hold of that, am reading. The original version is really long. The first six pages are just really making a meal out of describing all the ramifications of the simple sci-fi concept of a body swap.

Yes, unfortunately it seems to be not very good. "He now further adds that at the moment of torture I shall not only not remember the things I am now in a position to remember, but will have a different set of impressions of my past, quite different from the memories I now have. I do not think that this would cheer me up, either." So, the problem with this is that it's nonsense, like saying "You are not you, but you are! Now if something happens to that person, does it happen to you?" Well I don't know, Bernard, it depends what your rather silly words mean. He's just playing the shell game with the word I.

Then at the end (ten pages later) there's a messier version: "he could have gone on and produced two persons each with A-like character and memories, as well as one or two with B-like characteristics". So it seems that the confusion and non-neatness of the swap is the whole point. Thing is, I'm not even very concerned which one is me. I suppose, alright, I do prefer me-like characteristics. So I'll take the half-dozen clones who seem vaguely right, that's good enough for me. Whatever.


No, there's a difference, in that my clone would get PTSD or some similar trauma as a result, which is a waste of a large part of that clone's life. In the version where I'm drugged into forgetfulness, I've only wasted a day, for science and profit.

PTSD and other results of trauma do not require a memory of the thing happening to you. In fact often people don't remember the thing that caused the trauma.

It's enough that your nervous system adapts to the unsafe environment. It doesn't have to know why.


Oh yes, I daresay. I mean to include that sort of thing with "memories" anyway. The drug might not be physically possible in reality.

That's basically the premise of the show Severence, in case you didn't know. Give it a watch, it's very eye opening

I haven't seen it, but the premise is that you have a second self who is trapped at work and wants to escape. That's really not the same thing, and misses the point of my drug scenario, which is that pain and (simple) suffering outside of meaning don't have moral weight. In this TV show the inside-work-selves are leading meaningfully miserable lives, with the frustrated cognitive desire to escape. They have knowledge-forming thought processes that are being wasted.

I mean, OK, there's plenty of further tricky sci-fi dilemmas along these lines. But I was interested in pain in the context of animal rights, obviously, this being a thread about whales.


That is such a long reply telling me about the show I watched and you didn't watch, lol!

If you're only concerned about the memory of the pain itself then time to start volunteering!

I had a very gruesome femur break decades ago. I can remember begging to be knocked out because of the pain but there's no memory of the pain itself.


"the work is mysterious and important"

Your company or team has a terrible culture. It is not like that everywhere.

For what it is worth, if you want your withdrawals to last for decades, then you are limited to around a yearly inflation-adjusted cap of around 3% of the original principal per year, gross of taxes, if you invest in low-cost passive index funds. That is a budget of $30K/year for every million you have invested in the market.

If you are interested, the /r/fire and /r/financialindependence subreddits are useful.


I don't know who is down voting you. AFAIK IEEE 754:2008 does require support for subnormals. You can optionally have modes that flush them to zero, but you must support subnormals.

I haven't done any work on this stuff since 2019, so my memory may be hazy.


> My argument is that most people only veg out because they are tired of a hectic work life, but if given the chance to coast for a long time they would find productive work voluntarily and be more inclined to share their work

We have natural experiments of this: retirees, both early and otherwise. Do retirees during the first five years of their retirement "find productive work voluntarily" (your choice of words, not mine) in quantities that are comparable to what they did at work during the five years prior to their retirement? Not exceptional individuals, but on average.

I retired circa five years ago and spend my time doing stuff like walking the dog, drinking coffee and reading books, much like other retirees. My productivity is as close to zero as I can muster, and it is the rule, not the exception.


There's an obvious bias in focusing on retirees though. I mean, the whole notion of retirement exists for a reason.

But also, in all honesty, if we can feed and shelter everyone on the planet with only a small proportion of the population engaged in productive labor, what's the problem with most people walking the dog, drinking coffee, and reading books?


> There's an obvious bias in focusing on retirees though. I mean, the whole notion of retirement exists for a reason.

I see this also among my early retiree friends. People are quite happy just "playing" - gardening, joining a book club, making art, etc.

And I would be, too! There are times I enjoy doing bigger work, but man, I could build quite a delightful life living like a hobbit.


> There's an obvious bias in focusing on retirees though. I mean, the whole notion of retirement exists for a reason.

Go on, please. Whatever argument you make, please account for early retirees as well.

> if we can feed and shelter everyone on the planet with only a small proportion of the population engaged in productive labor

But that is not the premise of the discussion at hand, though. My comment was written in this specific context:

>>> My argument is that most people only veg out because they are tired of a hectic work life, but if given the chance to coast for a long time they would find productive work voluntarily


>> Win32 is the most stable abi on the Linux desktop.

> Dead wrong [...] if I want to release a binary _without relying_ on Win32

Then you are not using the Win32 ABI, are you?


> The reason I'm sticking with CUDA is because it's by far the most convenient API to use, without nonsense like 50-liners to alloc memory or the need to manage descriptors, bindings, queue families, etc.

I was there when the OpenCL committee was deciding on that sort of stuff.

As I recall, and it's been two decades and a lot of sleepless nights since then, there was real pushback at the time against OpenGL-style default bindings. So folks didn't want to establish an implicit command queue or any other default objects attached to other objects. Part of it is because OpenGL was perceived as clumsy and passé, some of it was because it is not friendly to multi-threaded applications.

Those first meetings were a shitshow full of tension, implicit threats from Apple, and backroom deals. Kudos to Neil Trevett for chairing the group; I I bet it wasn't fun for him either.


That's unfortunate. Cuda has shown that, when done right, defaults and a convenience layer can make for a well received API without sacrificing performance.

Yes, I wanted defaults as well, particularly a default context and command queue.

Design by committee is a real phenomenon. And people in a committee know that, but they are also helpless.


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